Video: Exploring the Renters’ Rights Bill: What it means for letting agents, landlords and tenants | Duration: 4508s | Summary: Exploring the Renters’ Rights Bill: What it means for letting agents, landlords and tenants | Chapters: Welcome and Introductions (21.295s), Preparing for Changes (525.635s), Preparing for Changes (667.44495s), Product Solutions Roadmap (905.5s), Landlord Market Reactions (1127.09s), Political Rental Landscape (1215s), Opportunities Amid Change (1597.27s), Rental Market Trends (2111.695s), Agent Support Concerns (2748.235s), Industry Support Perspectives (3071.905s), Concluding Advice (3475.625s)

Transcript for "Exploring the Renters’ Rights Bill: What it means for letting agents, landlords and tenants": Hi, everyone, and welcome to today's webinar. We're delighted to have you with us as we take a closer look at one of the most anticipated shifts coming up to our industry, the renters rights bill. I'm Emma from Alto, and I'm thrilled to be joined by Alan Bevan from City Residential, Christina Harris from Check Ins, and our very own Sarah Austin from Alto. Today's session is designed to help you as letting agents to stay not only informed but also compliant as these changes in legislation begin to take shape. So with the help of our recent survey data and our wonderful panel of industry experts, we'll break down the changes and explore what these changes mean in real terms, how they're already affecting the market, and what they could mean for the future of lettings. So as we go through the session, make sure you ask any questions via the chat. We also have some q and a time towards the end, and we'll try and get through them then. Just to let you know, we'll also be sharing a recording of this session too with you via email so you can rewatch it and share it around if you want to as well. So first off, let's introduce you to our lovely panel, and we will start off with Alan. Alan, if you could just tell everyone who you are, a little bit about city residential, and also what you hope to get out of today's session, if that's not too much. Of course. No. No. Not for the not not for today. Yes. So I'm Alan Bevan. I'm the founder and manager director of City Residential. We're the largest city center specialist in Liverpool. We manage around 700, properties in Liverpool, and and we're deemed to be the the the the city center specialist, which is quite different from from suburbia. So, hopefully, we'll bring some bits of info, some guidance in terms of, those agents that are dealing with city center apartments and stuff like that, but we can maybe help them, trip them along in the right direction. Amazing. Thank you very much. And we'll go over to you, Christina. Tell us a little bit about yourself and Cheffins as well and what you hope to get out today. Thank you, Emma. I'm Christina. I've been with Cheffins for, around fifteen years. We've been using Alto for lettings for the past seven years. Check ins have five offices throughout East Anglia. And across those five offices, we manage a portfolio of over 1,700 properties, and another probably few 100 of let only properties. Amazing. Thank you. It sounds like you're both kept very busy with those huge portfolios, so you're the right people to have on the call. And, last but not least, of course, Sarah, if you'd like to tell, everyone this about yourself and Alto and what you hope to hear. Thanks, Emma. Yeah. Hi, everybody. Thank you so much for for joining us today. I am Sarah, our Thrall chief marketing officer here at Alto. You know, a bit of an outlier when we look at the other attendees here, and panelists, but my role is all about connecting the dots between what folks, you know, that are joining us here today on the agent side need and really what Alto delivers and how we can just help navigate change and feel really confident about navigating that change. And so what I'm hoping to get out of of this session really is just some some nice dialogue and not just sharing about what Alto is helping prepare for for renters reform, but also hearing just your perspective, I think, as agents and and landlords because the more we understand those challenges, your ideas, and that means we can make Alto work better for you. So I know this is a really big moment in the industry, and that means it's also a really big opportunity, and I'm just excited to dig into that some more today. I see. Thank you so much, Sarah. So hopefully everyone watching now feels they know you all so much better. So as we go through, they know where you're coming from, your experience. So we are all here today to discuss the renters' rights bill. And to kick us off, let's just take a look at some data. So I will just share a slide with you. Hopefully, you can see that. So we've surveyed hundreds of agents across The UK on their thoughts around the rental reform. And from that, we've uncovered some key areas that seem to be a common worry amongst landlords. So when agents were asked which rental reform issues are your landlords most worried about, these were the results. So loss of section 21, no fault evictions, 29.3%. We've got mid tenancy exits and void periods, 27. Energy efficiency standards, you know, any changes in EPC changes, 15.3%. Portfolio profitability, 9%. Property conditions and in inspection rules, 7.2%. So there there seems to be some common worries here. I guess, let's just kick off the discussion with what rental reform issues are you on the call most worried about? So Alan Christina coming to either of you, does anything jump out at you? Yeah. I think the statistic regarding the loss of section 21, I think that is what a lot of landlords are concerned about. Personally, I don't like the term no fault evictions because I do think there is often a reason that the landlord does want the property back. The risk at the moment that we're seeing is we have some tenants who have been historically late paying but never kind of the full two months in arrears or they have been two months in arrears and they pay off smaller amounts of that. And the fear is that without section 21 there, they've never been able to have a section eight because they're not quite the two months in arrears. But now your only option is gonna be for those particular tenants to be three months into arrears. And then even then, it's been a month's notice, potentially, obviously, a very long period while it's at court without any rent coming in. And I think that is a concern for a lot of landlords that at the moment, they have got the section 21 to fall back on. And for those scenarios, there isn't gonna be an option because there won't be a ground under section eight for those types of evictions. Yeah. It's a long time for landlords to go without having you know, some are relying on this as income monthly, aren't they? And, actually, two months is a long time, but three months is an even longer time for them to actually have to go without having that money coming in and not knowing whether when the next time it will come in as well from that. So, yeah, really, really good point there. And, Alan, do you have a a sort of a point that jumps out as as your most concerned issue? Yeah. We we we we've got a group of three or four, really. I mean, the the the whole of REIA's court, question marks, even tribunal on on on rental increases that that that's a concern for everybody because it's it's just shifted the shifted the the time dial a little bit away from landlords. So we we we are concerned about that. The the the short term we call it the short term churn, you know, this mid tenancy exit. We're not seeing that at the moment, and I know also have have looked at that in detail, but it's gonna happen. It's gonna it's it's gonna impact. And I think it's it's more the the potential for that that's gonna worry landlords as much as it will worry agents whether that actually comes to fruition. It's just the risk and the fear that that that's gonna really impact on their returns. Probably the worst one for us, which is quite a niche little part is, is the the one month's rent in advance limited limiting to one month's rent in advance. We we we obviously work in the city center. We've got a quite a transient tenant market. We, let to a fair amount of students, lot of younger population who who need guarantors or cash upfront and and not being able to, collect more than a month's rent in advance when actually the majority of the tenants want to give us more than a month's rent in advance. And the technicality of of of having to sign that that new AT agreement before we collect the remainder of the first month's rent. That is a that is a curveball that we may talk about it later in this webinar, but if that sort of gets into focus and gets into the media, that could be a real problem, for landlords, and it it it might frighten landlords out of the sector rather than just give them a nod. You know? It really does. Yeah. It feels like such an uncertain sort of time with it really because landlords don't know don't know what to expect, and they're sort of going into tendencies now with maybe a little bit less security around them. Yeah. Is there anything that you're preparing for? Is there any any implementations that you're putting in to sort of prepare for that, prepare for these changes? Yeah. There there there is. We've done quite a few. I mean, just just on some of those issues is that the danger we've got as agents and landlords is that we obviously want to keep all our all of our lands absolutely updated, to to to the tenth degree, really. And but there are some things in the renters rights bill that that you sort of may not come to head the industry, may not come to head landlords or agents. And but we could spook a lot of landlords who want to stay in the sector, just by saying that there might be a scenario where you have a tenant move into a to an apartment with house having paid their full month's rent upfront. It's unlikely to happen, but it could happen. So, but in in terms of in terms of trying to educate the landlords, we've been communicating with them for about six months now. I mean, obviously, the the bill is not, live yet, but but we're trying to sort of guide them to where that's gonna go to. Our ourselves, we we're I mean, we we have the problem in the city center with regards to landlords who do want to sell, are struggling to sell because of building safety issues, cladding, fire safety issues. So we're helping them decide whether they can sell or not before they decide to to exit the sector. From a compliance perspective, personally, we've moved to Good Lord, which we're very happy that it's integrated into also. One of the reasons why we did that, to help us with compliance. Periodic rents. So we any of our periodic tendencies, we're going through with the fine tooth government have been, trying to bring those rents up to a a live open market, rent before the bill comes in for logical reasons. And probably the most interesting thing for us and and to share with any agents out there, we've totally just restructured our whole terms of engagement and fee structure with the landlord. So we took it as an opportunity before the bill came in to say, look, we need to to to ensure that we're charging what we should be charging. We've consolidated a lot of our little individual charges to landlords into one monthly compliance fee, to streamline what we do to make sure we're charging what we should be charging with the with the the landslide of legislation and and and pain that's gonna come to us. So that's about it for now. Yeah. So quite a lot. And I I want the the shout out for for good thought there. I promise we didn't make Alan say this. Say that. Absolutely. It's a really handy thing. You know, they they are helping out with we can let I mean, they're taking over the the responsibility of the compliance and keeping that up to date. And, actually, if you're an agent that's managing that by yourself, these changes can be really scary because that's a a lot of really serious legislation that you have to keep on track of. And so having integration partners like Good Lord can support you in that, which maybe can ease the worry a little bit there. And, obviously, if anyone's interested in hearing some more about Good Lord, pop it in the chat, and we can reach out to you individually because, yeah, really good good company to know about. Christine, what about you? Is there is there anything that you're sort of like putting putting in at the support people? Very, very similarly to what Alan has said. We've also streamlined our full lettings process, so that we know that we can be compliant once the changes come in, once the new tenancy agreements are released, once they're written. We know that we're gonna be able to integrate those into our process that we've already got set up now. And, again, like Alan, we've done that now in advance of it so we're not having to make these changes once the laws come in. We're already all staff will all be aware of how we do that. Again, very similar to Alan, we've been, educating our landlords. We use the Alto, emails that we can make on there, to make our own newsletter where we've been keeping landlords up to date, for a long, long time about this. And similar to Alan, we're we're not trying to scare landlords. We're just educating them and having that conversation with them, particularly about when the property is coming up to re let now when they're choosing to to re let the property. We're having those types of conversations about, how it's gonna work in the future, how we might be fixing the tenancy at the moment, but it may become the periodic tenancy a lot quicker than we're thinking that it's going to be. And most of our landlords are happy as long as we're keeping them up to date with what could be around the corner. I think, you know, conversation is key with a lot of our clients. Just a couple of extra bits that we've been doing, obviously, stricter referencing. Alan's obviously mentioned they've changed referencing partners. Again, I think it's very important to make sure that you are using a good referencing agency, that is checking documents properly. Obviously, there's still gonna be rent arrears in the future, but at least by having those checks done, you're gonna be making sure that you're choosing the correct tenants at the moment. And similar to what Alan had said, the concern for us in our area is lack of rent upfront. A lot of our offices, again, deal with foreign, students coming over to The UK for studying, and, they obviously, Rosetite will will not have a UK guarantor. They would they would prefer to pay rent upfront. So we've been exploring options of professional guarantors for tenants as well, which is a few providers out there in the market. And, also, with our landlords because of the worries around rent to raise, and a lot of our landlords, have got mortgages on the properties. So it's a fear for them of not potentially having rent coming in for a period of time and having to rely on the new section eight for rent to raise. We've been, recommending rent and legal protection that a lot of landlords should be looking into as well with the changes. Yeah. That's a great shout, especially if it's gonna be potentially a few months in those bad bad cases that a landlord has to pay without, without any money coming in. I I think you're so right there in terms of communication because, actually, it is a big change. And no one likes change anyway, but especially when it's it impacts, you know, your your income, it it impacts your property. And I think having that conversation and putting their minds at rest as much as possible, the more information they know, the more confident they're gonna feel when they're when they're having these conversations with you, when they're going forward and deciding what they're gonna do with their property. So really, really important to have. Sarah, do you have any sort of, like, things from the outside perspective as as how we prepared for the changes? Yeah. Yeah. No. It's, it's so interesting. I've been just, like, writing some things down even, hearing hearing Alan and Christina go through how they're preparing. Because for us, you know, our focus is really all about helping our customers, like Alan and Christina, help their customers, right, on the landlord side. And so it's not just about, like, flagging the challenges of of reform that we know are coming, but also really just building the tools to help agents really meet them kinda head on. And so, obviously, from a product standpoint, we have put together a road map a road map that is designed, to address what we see to be, like, three major things and just from, like, a super high level. Obviously, that's about reducing as much of the admin that we know we can to just free up the time for agents to to do their jobs, cutting the risk that is associated with this type of of change, and then also helping agents be really confident, about when it comes to discussing this this reform and navigating these changes without losing their landlords or losing any sort of letting, income. And so I think for me, one of the the big things that comes up a lot is just all around tenancy progression. We know it's one of the most time consuming areas. And and with Alto, through that that automation and and through that focus around you know, from a product standpoint, we see cutting those times, by up to 65%, sometimes even above that. So that just means now we're letting folks be able to focus more on their clients, less time buried in in the paperwork that we've heard both Alan and and Christina talk about, particularly around compliance. I think that's another big one. Obviously, it's always been super important, but, now it's we're seeing, like, absolutely vital. And so every single item matters and every single item has to be fully documented. And so this is all about helping, from our perspective, agents just reduce that risk by storing certificates and documents and payments and all of their comms in one place. You can even set up alerts to you know, before documents are expiring and actually, like, maintain that audit trail, that we know is really important, but without having to spend a lot of, like, manual, like, work. So I think, finally, like, just and then this is one of the things that I jotted down, after hearing, Alan speak is there's really, like, that landlord relationship. And right now, I think what I hear when I talk to customers is they their customers, their landlords are looking for more assurance than ever before. And so agents need to be able to really explain what those changes are and and be able to, like, proactively offer solutions that make their customers feel really confident that they're in their the the best hands possible. And so that's where Alto really comes in to just help create some of that, like, proactive communication that we know is the sort of precipice of building that trust and just make it easy and and more likely for landlords to stick with with your agency. So kind of, you know, in wrapping it all up, it's just it's it's about keeping agents informed about the reform, but also equipping them with the right tools, to help them stay compliant, be as efficient as possible, and just really trust it in the eyes of of their their landlords. And that average time saved makes a massive impact when you're talking about freeing up time for agents internally to then be focused on things like this. Because I mean, that's it's a huge training and learning curve for your everyday agent that actually has has learned something one way, and it's always been that way. And, you know, you've got a lot of younger agents and less agents now as well. And so it's a lot of responsibility, really, for them to take this on. So having that time back is really important for me. Yeah. You're spot on. So if we think about the agents, sorry, the landlord's reactions here, are we are we expecting, you know, landlords to be wanting now to sell up? Will are they getting scared? Do you think there's gonna be an acceleration in landlords now leaving the market, or actually could it encourage a whole new type of landlord to enter the market? What are your thoughts in in terms of landlords, and their reactions at the moment? Alan or Christina, jump in there. Yeah. I think a lot of landlords have already left the market. This has been talked about for the past year or two years in the media. We've all been aware of it. And like I said, myself and Allan have been obviously keeping our landlords up to date with these changes. So those we haven't necessarily seen a lot of landlords serve notices now to exit the market. More so where the properties are coming empty because the tenants are choosing to leave naturally, wanting to move on. At those stages, landlords are weighing up their options, and that's where the communication is gonna come in. A little bit like we were just saying that that reassurance of how you're gonna add value to them, and how you're gonna look after their property and look after that these changes through these legislation changes and guide them through it. Those types of conversation is a key in trying to maintain the, the landlord business. But I do think most would have left have left because this has been in the media now. I think it's gonna depend on how implementation, comes in with the law and what's the lead time is is done on it, whether we see more suddenly hear about it in the media and decide to exit the market or whether those that have already have done so. Yeah. Absolutely. Alan, do you sort of are you on the same wavelength there? Yes. No. I mean, I I think, Christine, you know, many that are that are gonna leave have left. I think my biggest concern is that that even through the best education that we can give, all also, yeah, all all the industry, providers can give. I I think there's plenty of landlords out there who who are not aware of of of what's coming or the the actual detail. I think when once we start to see and there are gonna be some horror stories about, you know, somebody moving into a property and and two months later giving notice to quit and, or or some of the challenge we talked about about months of upfront. And I think once those stories start to come out, you know, landlords will start to realize the consequences of the bill. But I'd like to think during that time, we're gonna continue to see rental increases as the supply does start to dwindle. I mean, you know, the government and many commentators talking about build to rent being the savior of the rental market when, you know, viability of build to rent across The UK is is is challenged, certainly in Northern England. So so I I think I think there will be more landlords to come as time goes on. But but I think, Chris, you're right. We we probably see the worst of it. And, you know, I I think at some point, if rents do continue to to to keep on rising then, you know, will landlords will new landlords come into the market or existing landlords start to mop up? Yeah. I think we're starting to see that in the auction market now where where people are achieving 15% gross yields, and that's attracting cash buyers back in. So, so, yeah, we we yeah. It's it's a bit of both, I think, at the moment for us. It's a cycle really, isn't it? Because as as landlords are panicking and then selling, that that's obviously then saturating the market with those styles of properties. And so then they're gonna get cheaper and cheaper to buy, which is then appealing, actually, for that to pick them up again. But do you think that I'd sorry to jump in. Something we've noticed a little bit in in our area, in particular, the office that I'm based in in Haythe Hill is, we've got a lot of investors that want to pick up rental properties with tenants in situ. So, and, again, that's, I think, coming off the back of knowing that they're good tenants, knowing that they're happy to stay, that you're not gonna be buying a property. A little bit like Alan said, a worst case scenario, an investor buys an empty property, tenant moves in straight away, gives notice, and it's empty again two months later. You know, I think landlords would be a little bit concerned about that or tenant moves in and instantly stops paying the rent. Whereas if you're buying a property with a tenant who's already with that agent or you've been paying that agent for the past few years knowing that they're happy and settled, That type of tendency is appealing to landlords at the moment as we're seeing some of our investors actually actively searching out buying from other investors. Yeah. And you immediately have that income come in without having a a stopgap of while the property is completing, and then you might have to refurnish it or then look for people to get in there. At least it's filled straight away. So you can see why the appeal would be there for, for those landlords in doing that. Do we think that over the next few years, you know, the re the rent to repo will stabilize, or do you think it's gonna keep changing? Or are we just at the beginning really of a cycle that will keep evolving and keep changing? I'll I'll jump in on that one. And without being political in any which way, because I'm not political, I I think the problem for the sector now, it is too politicized. It it's since the, tenant fee ban in '19, it it's not gonna we we can't see any way that that politics is gonna go out of the sector. It's gonna be driven out of the sector. So even if you can start to say, where where is this gonna get to with the renter's rights, but there's no doubt it it it's gonna have an impact on supply. Demand is forecast to keep on growing. So there's no doubt rents are gonna go up unless there's something around the corner, affordability, major affordability issues we don't see. And and you know what's coming off the back of that. It's gonna be the call for for rent controls. They haven't worked anywhere throughout Europe, but they didn't work in Scotland when they introduced. But but that's gonna, you know, that that there's gonna be calls for that. So I think there's always gonna be a continual, pressure from various bodies, various groups, various stakeholders, who who who have the ear of the politicians and the politicians, you know, they're they're all under pressure whichever party you're looking at. And I I think the sector is just is gonna be driven by politics rather than common sense and and economics. You know, we if we look at at the moment supply and demand, we all know the issues that driving the supply down will do to its basic economics, but we're still pushing on that door. So so I I don't think it can get any worse. Certainly, I I've gone if it gets any worse. But it it but it is it? Yeah. It could get worse now. Yeah. But but we can't we can't see it settling down too too quickly. I I wish it would, but I I don't see that happening personally. And I agree. I think, we will see more reform in the next few years. With this reform that's happening now, I'd hope to see that there's gonna be trial and error periods taken into account, and feedback being able to be given. I know with the rent tribunals that Alan touched at the start, they have left it open that it's gonna be reviewed about whether these, rents, rent increases can be backdated, whether that's gonna be, something that tenders take advantage of and causes, havoc with the with the rent increases. They've already said the government have said that that's gonna be something that they will look at and there will be review. It's a shame that they haven't done any court review before taking away section 21. But whether that's something that comes in the future, I really hope that there's gonna be a feedback and a trial and error process with this and that it may be reviewed in a few years' time. Not necessarily to go back the way things were, but to give an opportunity for further improvements to to keep the market running. Yeah. And it really is a sort of a cause and effect. It has to be, doesn't it? You know, you have to in a way, you can't please everyone all at once. And so, I mean, historically, there's always been that in a way where it it gets too tough on landlords and so it goes a little bit more to them and it gets too tough on the tenants, so it goes a little bit more for them. So it's bound to keep evolving in some ways because it will have to. Do you think I mean, this is a a sort of an open question, really, and the answer might be no. But are there any positive opportunities that might come out of this for, you know, forward looking landlords and even agents? Could it just be that maybe it's, there's more more supply on the market if some landlords have already decided to set up? Or can you see any opportunities there coming out of this? I think from the, the, tenancies not being periodic, I I see what the government has done with that, and I understand the appeal to a tenant that if they were to move into a property and it not look as it was advertised or to move in and have repairs that they want to report straight away and then find out that actually the landlord doesn't like doing any of these repairs or the agent doesn't report the repairs to the landlord, or they have these types of issues that it gives the tenant an opportunity to leave the property at their own choice rather than having to stay and be fixing. I understand that that's what the government wants to do. But what I hope would be an opportunity for agents and for landlords is the good quality homes will be the ones that attract the tenants that do want to stay in the properties longer. And, hopefully, those agents that do do everything correctly and are compliant and, you know, do follow all the laws, they they will be the ones that will reap the benefits of the longer term tenants. Whereas some of our competitors that maybe don't look after properties or landlords that don't look after their properties and self manage may find themselves that they have they're the ones that do have the tenants that are moving out quicker. Yeah. Absolutely. No. That's a really good point in terms of actually the landlords having to to take ownership and look after their properties and create a really nice living space for the tenants. Obviously, you don't know what tenants you're gonna get. It might not always go to plan, but if they can do their part, then it puts them in a really good position. And, Alan, what about you? Do you can you see any positives coming out of this? Well, there's gonna be an accusation now. Me and Christine have spoken before this, before this webinar, which we definitely haven't. So so I I've got I've I've got written down here, flight a flight to quality. So so I think what we're gonna have is is a flight to quality across all elements of the rental sector. So a flight to quality of accommodation provision, you know, those landlords that deserve to keep the tenants, deserve to to maximize the rents, they're gonna they're gonna rise to the the the top and those that don't will probably need to exit the sector. From an agency viewpoint, and I I don't like to say this, but but it's it's size and quality is gonna matter. You know, if you if you're an agent of of up to 200, properties, it's gonna get tougher because we you you you have to ensure your compliance is there, ensure your quality, all all your procedures are in place. So there's gonna be opportunities for for maybe consolidation or maybe for exit for those smaller agents, or or landlords who who may struggle to to to do what they want to do. But but that flight to quality, that's what may well come out of this. And and if the if the private rented sector, you know, the quality of the private sector becomes better, then we should all rejoice that. That's if that's what one of the benefits that comes out of it, that that's that's good for us. Yeah. I think just touching on something that Alan had mentioned earlier as well, there are gonna be opportunities for agents to look at their fee structures. Obviously, they've already updated their terms of business. There is gonna be opportunities there for, again, setting your value as an agent to a landlord. Landlords that are self managing, especially, you know, once we're ready a small portfolio that perhaps have their own jobs, they don't do it professionally. They are gonna very much struggle to, to update themselves with these changes. There's obviously opportunities there to increase your portfolio size by picking up those landlords. There'll also be, obviously, fee structures involved with the new survey of section 13, serving section eight notices, void management services. So, again, there's for agents, there's gonna be some opportunity there as well. It's not all doing well. Yes. It really sounds like agents could use this as an opportunity to sort of jump on the bandwagon and really, really educate themselves in this topic. And so then they've got the skills. They've got the the knowledge there to share it with, you know, landlords that that haven't researched, that don't know the ins the ins and outs and want an expert to be able to give them that little bit of guidance and security on it. It's just gonna be a huge job, like you said, for the especially the smaller agents that are doing everything themselves, to stay on track with it, especially if we're kind of expecting it to keep evolving and keep changing. So, yeah, just staying in with the knowledge and in the know is gonna be really important. Sarah, can you sort of see anything? Would you agree with that in in the terms of opportunities for agents there? Yeah. Absolutely. I think, you know, there's there's no real way to sugarcoat, what's happening right now. Like, any sort of reform, just a natural, consequence of that rate is challenged. But I really liked how you framed it, Emma. Like, there is also an opportunity here for I sort of refer to them as more, like, forward looking landlords and agents who, if this is done right, can really capitalize on it. But I like, Alan, how you described this of, like, the flight to quality, sort of like rising tide kinda lift all boats. Right? If if it just sort of elevates, the the business and the industries that we're in. And I think a a little bit of, like, a a deviation, but at Alto, we've actually just come off our best first half ever with, like, record numbers of of letting agents joining Alto. And and it's not really a surprise because I think when they're in a time of uncertainty and, I think we are all agreeing that we're definitely in one. Although, I will say I think it always feels like that in this business, the more and more I'm learning about it. It definitely keeps you on your toes. But, agents, they they just want substance. They want a a platform that delivers. They want the most trusted. They want the best functionality, and that's that is Alto. That's Alto at its core. And I think for a lot of those agents, like, this is a moment, to really sort of, like, take a step back and just look at their existing tech stack, think about if their their systems are giving them what they need from a a compliance support standpoint. Is it, as efficient as possible? Do they have the right communication tools that they need, or are there gaps that actually could potentially put them on on the back foot as more of this bill comes into play, but then also who knows, you know, what the future holds. And so I think that forward looking agent, that flight to quality, those are the ones who are gonna use this period of change to make sure that they've got the right stuff in place. And I'm not exaggerating when I say, like, I'm in meetings every single day where we're talking about these topics, so that we are ready to help our agents be ready. And and, you know, that's something that's like a moment of pride for me when I'm in these types of webinars knowing that, like, this is a a thing that is concerning, and we're here to really, like, be a partner, in figuring out how to how to best navigate that. I think that's such an interesting call out as well. And, obviously, I'm gonna be a bit biased because I am I'm working about it as well. Me both. But yeah. You're rebuffed today. But I do think that any to have a CRM that is actively not just providing you with CRM so you can do your job actively behind the scenes, considering the market, looking at changes, looking at how trends are happening, and what can what can we do to support that. That is a really great team to have backing you up on your day to day working life because you know that if there's anything happening, you're not really dealing with it alone as an agent because your software is backing you up and trying to support you with these changes. So, yeah, really, I love that call out just to as another consideration because even I haven't really thought about that, before today. So thank you for that, Sarah. Absolutely. We'll also so going back to the survey, that I've got on the screen, I'm just gonna share another slide here as well. So that should have swapped over now. So we've uncovered some interesting trends that aren't necessarily being talked about. So if we take a look at the stats here. So first of all, landlords quitting. So one in three lettings agents say landlords are leaving the market, which we've already mentioned there. 93% of letting agents are now concerned about losing landlords altogether. So that's a that is a huge huge stat. And 70% say that some of their landlords have already exited the market, which, Christina, I think that's a bit like you said. You know, if they're gonna have left by now, they said they would have left. So that could thing at that and why that is such a large number. But also students. So one in five agents say landlords are already pulling out student market, and another 10% say landlords are reconsidering. A further 10% of agents have even advised their clients to ditch student debts altogether in the past year. And we've also got a growing lack of confidence for landlords as we've got the rise of the stopover tenant. So almost one in three lettings agents report tenants signing six to twelve month agreements, but leaving early, and sometimes that's just after a few months. We've got 27% of agents believing new rental reforms are fueling a rise in relocation, so short term renting. And nearly half of agents are already advising landlords differently to manage the risk of mid tenancy exits. So you can see from the stats that there is a lot of unrest there, and I know some of that we've spoken about, you know, in terms of, the student side of things in particular. Maybe that being due to the sort of amount of deposit you can take up from the amount of rent you can take up from. But that is it's a huge amount to to digest when you're looking at those stats. And it really does show how widely spread the changes are going to be felt when you see the numbers like that. I'm really keen to hear some thoughts from you guys on the panel just on those trends and what you think of those stats in particular. Feel free to jump in if any stand out to you. I'll I'll I'll have a go at the students because we we whilst we're not a student's agent, we do let to a lot of students and very close to the universities in the pool. So the the the theme come out of Liverpool. Liverpool is doing very very well as a university city. It's just it's affordable. It seems a place everybody wants to come and let. So we're not we're not seeing as harsh a market as we're seeing in other places in The UK. I was talking to universities early on this week, and they're both saying that, yeah, there are some individual smaller student landlords exiting, but but all of those properties are being bought up by other very often larger student landlords. So you're seeing again a bit of consolidation going on there. So we're not we're not concerned that the supply is gonna drop too much. The supply may need to drop a little bit because obviously you've got the challenge of the overseas student numbers coming down. The, the The UK numbers struggling to grow, with apprenticeships and stuff like that rolling out. So, you know, the student market is is in for a tough time. We've got the issue of the section four a of the renter's rights bill. How that may or may not affect the market, we don't know yet. So the student markets, it it it's it's gonna be a challenging time. Just on for me on the stopover tenant, we we haven't seen this at all yet where we we've, we we've seen tenants trying to jump out of fixed term tenancies. We are we we're ruthless in our vetting, and we'll continue to be and probably grow that. There's no doubt there's a risk of of of people running shorter term tendencies when when when everything's periodic. But I was thinking about this morning just before it came on. If if I wanted a a two or three month rental, and I'm thinking to myself, right, that's gonna cost me £1,500 a month with with a short term Airbnb operator, or I'm gonna be able to get one of a letting agent for a thousand pounds a month. Yeah. Let's go to the letting agent. Don't tell them that we only want it for three months and and and tell them that we're gonna be there for twelve months. There's a lot of hoops to go through to get that rental. So you've got to you know, we won't let anybody take rental until we viewed it, so they've gotta come and view it. They've gotta they've gotta compete with the other tenants out there. They may not get it. So I I don't know. I have a funny feeling it might be getting a little bit overdone that we're gonna see a huge amount of churn. I mean, we're we're in a very transient market. Our our tenancy lands are shorter than any any any suburb agents. And and we're not we're not massively worried about it. It's it's a watching brief, but but we think, you know, a a moving tendencies every two or three months, chasing down your deposits. You know, it's it's a lot of hassle to go through. So for us, I'd I'd we we're hoping that it's not gonna be as bad as forecast. We'll just keep on doing what we can to to really work hard knowing our tenants before we move in. If we still got a strong tenant tenant's market, and we've got six, seven, 10 potential tenants for each property, we we can pick and choose on behalf of the landlord, and we hope to think that we can maybe weed out those ones who aren't. If if somebody says they're only wanting for three months, at least we know, but those who don't tell us. But it gives a bit of flexibility to those tenants. It might be a couple of splits or it might be somebody who loses a job. And, actually, that's what the renters rights bill is there for to give that degree of, a flexibility to to to those tenants who need to move out. Yeah. That's a valid point you added at the end there just in, you know, it's not fun to move, is it? It's not an enjoyable experience to pack up all your belongings and and move house and the cost that that come in with that. So you would hope that no one's just ending a tendency just for the sake of ending it, that there would be a reason for it. But the vetting process is such a key element of it because if you can do as many checks as you can upfront and that's all you can do within your control before they get into the property, then at least you've done as much as you can, and you've you've got peace of mind as much as you can going into it that you've done those background checks. And also have that open conversation with them as well into what they're looking to do and how long they're hoping to stay there, and hope that they give you honest answers in that as well. Christine, what what your thoughts on there? Is there anything that stands out in particular to you? Yeah. Again, I was I was thinking very similar to Alan that I don't think particularly in our area, it may be different in others. But, I mean, we're East Anglia and you're Liverpool and you're saying very similar, but I I don't see that being too much of an issue with the shorter term tenancies. I think, again, we vet our tenants. I think that's gonna be crucial as well by asking the right questions. I think it is a lot of hassle for people if they're going into it. And, you know, there are gonna be someone's group of people that know that they were they're going into it knowing they only want it for two months. Fine. You know, there there's there's gonna be ways around it. But, But, ultimately, I think there should be ways that tenants can leave a tenancy earlier, like we touched on as well about the quality landlords and the quality agents and the quality properties. I think in those situations, yeah, I would be concerned that that tenants would move in, realize that the agent or the landlord isn't getting repairs done or the property isn't safe or there is compliance issues. They should be given the opportunity to to be able to leave the tenancy rather than have to stay for six months or twelve months. Again, in our area, we see it occasionally where tenants have moved in, had a change of circumstances, lost a job, need to relocate. Again, in those circumstances, why wouldn't you want the tenant to leave? If they're willing to leave because they've lost their job and there's a risk they can't pay the rent or, they're having to relocate, they're not gonna be able to look after the property. Let them go. You know, that that shouldn't be a concern for anybody if the tenant wants to leave willingly. So, yeah, I'm surprised that that's quite a high statistic on there, people being concerned about it. And being honest because I that doesn't seem to be too much of a concern for our landlords. Yeah. Absolutely. And so do you have any sort of any stats that jump out at you though as as particularly shocking, or are they what you'd expect sort of from our conversation? Yeah. I think, I think I think it's in line, like, the based off of the conversations that I have on more, like, one on one standpoint, I think it does seem to echo what what the data here is telling us. I think what's interesting is we see that shorter tenancies are on the rise and and that to everyone's point here, it creates a level of flexibility that, Christina, I love how you phrase that. Like, that's that's important to provide. And if if that's what, tenants are needing, then it's up to us and and landlords to really make that as as easy and seamless as possible for the right reasons. But I think the the the reality around that is it also just creates a lot of challenges. You know, shorter tenancies is more applications, more contracts, hundreds and hundreds of extra hours of admin over the course of of a year. But if you've got the right tools in place, yes, it's it's a change and it's different, but it doesn't actually have to be, like, a real pain point. And so I think when we think about Alto, and what it's designed to do of as you guys have heard me say, like, reduce that admin burden, from agents, then it's sort of and that could be you know, you're shortlisting applicants to issuing invoices to confirming right to rent. And we've actually sort of taken that that jobs of work across every single, one of our customers and and really quantified it. So with agents using Alto, they save up to forty hours per user per month. Like, imagine what you could do with an extra week's worth of time. I I certainly could use it. I'm sure everybody on this call could as well. And so that's what's worth, like, kind of reiterating and reminding yourselves about. So, yes, shorter tendencies will impact the market, but it doesn't have to be a negative. If you've got the right tools in place, if your agents, you know, if they can actually adapt quickly to protect their own time and and stay focused on growing their business rather than drowning in paperwork. That creates a better experience for everyone involved. And so I think it's just about, like, adapting to this change as we know it and also the, undoubtedly, the next changes that are coming off the back of this as well. Yeah. Absolutely. I know you were sort of just mentioning, like, the shorter tendencies there. I know we've sort of briefly touched on it in part previously anyway, but just as a direct question then, I guess, what what are your thoughts, Alan, Christina, on shorter tendencies? You know, is this gonna have an impact on the market? Or I know, Alan, you said you actually have shorter shorter tendencies in in your local area anyway. Do you think this is gonna have an impact, or do you think it it's actually not gonna change things as much as as the expectation? No. I I like Christine just said, I think shorter tendencies there's a degree of flexibility that will come out of shorter tendencies, but Yeah. I I I we just can't see it creating a major problem for us or for individual landlords. And and it look. Ultimately, it's our job as as as an agent to to deal with that, you know, set the expectations right for landlords, ensure that we do everything that we can do. You know? I I do think that the tenants themselves, you know, we know what's coming, but well, I I would say six months after the the the the rental rights bill is fully implemented, I would probably say that less than 50% of tenant will actually understand that they can actually take a tenancy for three months. You know, it's just the way that we we we get so obsessed with with with knowledge, you know, and and and understanding all of this new legislation is coming that that we forget sometimes that the general public are blissfully unaware of of what can and can't be done. That's not to say two year down there when there's some horror stories come out or or some ways to con the, con the letting agents into doing something that other people might be. But but we don't I look. We don't see it as a as a major problem. And and like Christine said, if there's flexibility that that is provided to those who need flexibility, it may some landlords may see the opportunity to to offer that flexibility, on some of their portfolio at some point. So Absolutely. I think that's a really interesting point about actually the the tenants being educated. We've not even really spoken about that. You know, we've spoken a lot about the education for the landlord side of things, but, really, most tenants go into a property and and they just wanna, you know, sign sign the tenancy agreement and get in, and they don't really know their rights regulations until something goes wrong, and then they have to to look it up. Because I I was reading earlier on, you know, the they can sort of debate any rent to increase and take it to the tribunals and things like that. And I was thinking, I don't even know if I I would have known that. You know, if if I was renting now, I don't know if I would know to do that. You would just get told your rent and you would just sort of have to agree or or move if you didn't wanna pay it. And, yeah, it's that education for the tenants as well. It's gonna be really interesting to see how that changes, over the coming months and even years and how well educated actually tenants make themselves. So do you think the agents feel supported enough? You know, obviously, it's a hard one because you're supporting your agents directly. Do you think the general agents, you know, across The UK are supported enough with government industry bodies, technology, any anything like that, any resources like that? Is there enough support out there for agents like yourselves? I think there's a lot of questions at the moment, and I think agents feel a little bit in limbo in we know these changes are coming. We don't know how it's gonna look. We don't know how our tenancy agreements are going to look. But I do think we've been supported by the industry, not necessarily by the government and by, you know, other sort of governing bodies of lettings. But I do think the industry has adapted quite quickly as Alan mentioned and as I've mentioned. We've already streamlined our lettings process. You know, there's lots of providers out there like Good Lord that are, allowing you to sort of have a streamlined compliant process from start to finish to make that a little bit like we were saying, the time saving element of it and especially where some of them are integrated with Alto, that's saving even more time for agents. So at least make sure that those things are in place, because you you can only control the things that you can at the moment. At the moment, there does feel a little bit of a lack of control amongst agents where we know these changes are coming. We don't yet know how it's gonna adapt, and we're changing what we can by putting things in place to at least streamline what we can at the moment. But, yes, things like terms of business are gonna possibly need to be rewritten with new laws to be put into them. And, again, until those things have come out, a lot of agents are sitting tight on those. Obviously, we're aware that these structures are gonna need to be adapted. But, again, until we've got the actual legislation, it's difficult to actually put something in writing in your terms to to your landlord. So I would say at the moment, the lack of communication on this and the implementation stage from the government is leaving us a little bit in limbo. Yeah. And it's a huge topic to not have the full information from us, especially because you know that as it's being talked about in in the industry, that you will get questions from your agent from your landlord, sorry, as well. And so you wanna be in the know to answer your landlords so that you you are still the, you know, an expert in their eyes and that they can come to you with these questions. So, yeah, having that support. And do you do you feel the same? Do you disagree? Yeah. Yeah. Government support, absolutely not. But I I'd I'd really worry if we were. May maybe maybe one day. But we we don't sort of expect government support, really. The industry generally, yeah, obviously, we're members of PropertyMark. PropertyMark have have really got their act together, I think, over the last twelve, eighteen months. Some of some of the new bits they've brought out, which is is good to see that doing the the work that they've done on, or tried to do on their enterprise bill has been been good, and and been been impressed with that. The whole tech issue is quite interesting because, obviously, without without sort of blowing all also trumpet, you know, it's revolutionized how when you can. Oh, yeah. I will do. Don't do. But it's revolutionized how how we've worked because one thing we've we've sort of try and always push also is is is all about integration. So so we used to use, external providers for maintenance reporting. You probably know who that was. We've taken that internally with also. You know, lots of other you know, the the the integrations with Good Lord and Vouch, we we utilize those. Chris even mentioned about terms of business. We have sent out terms of business over the last couple of weeks tied in with our new, fee structure with the landlords, knowing that we might have to redo those in trouble. But we sent out nearly 700 terms of business through Alto's esigning facility in in just under two days. That's phenomenal. So so having tech, having it integrated into CCRM is fab. The only other thing on tech, I think there's too much tech out there. You know, literally now, they you know, the there's there's a bit of tech for for doing everything. And and I would say 80% of the tech that we get offered is is a waste of space. We're we're huge for tech. We're huge for automation, streamlining, you know, cutting out waste, cutting out manual inputs. But there's a lot of tech out there. So for for those agents out there, just be careful about the tech that that you know, if you if you're taking on tech, if you if you if you're buying tech, just say what what what's the return from that tech? What's it you might say, I'll change. It'll save me two hours a week or four hours a week. But what are you gonna do with that four hours a week? That's that's so we're we're quite strict on on what we do on on tech. There there is plenty of tech out there for you. Yeah. So it's using it in the right way to sort of support you and not necessarily do all the jobs for you, but just support you in your in your workload so that you can focus on the more important things. So do you sort of have any have any input in that? And do do you think, you know are you getting enough support in terms of the, like, the knowledge so that you can then feed that into outsource software? Do you think agents are getting enough support? Yeah. It's such a good question. I I echo, both of of what everybody said here, particularly around, not really, like, proactively getting enough of the support, but actually having to go out searching for it. It it tends to be the experience that I've had as well as what I hear other customers are having. But I think what's interesting is support kinda looks different depending on where, agents are turning. So government and, you know, industry bodies, I think, to to Alan and Christina's point, like, many agents still feel like they're kind of they're responsible for piecing information together. And I think, Christina, you even mentioned this specifically. Like, there's just a lot of unknowns in this that we're still trying to figure out. But the technology piece, is interesting because I just I think it varies. I hear some real, I guess, horror stories about lack of support that that agents have gotten, in the past that actually resulted in them coming over to Alto and sort of this, like, desperate search for for exactly that. And so I think for me and and agents from my perspective, like, my advice is pretty simple. I think you you just as you're going out looking for support in other areas, like, you almost need to demand that from your technology providers. And and if they aren't delivering what you need, you just need to find one who will, because they exist. And I think we're we specifically are at a really interesting point of time in this industry. We're in the past. The idea of switching a a key platform like a CRM with almost just, like, an impossibility. It was too much work, too much, risk around integrating processes. It was too intimidating thinking about how to migrate all this, you know, historical data that you got, all that kind of stuff. But if you find the right one, you know, and with Altos specifically, like, we have migrated more agencies than anyone in this industry. We have quite literally seen it all. We get customers live in in under four weeks on average. Sometimes as often as or as little as two weeks. So that's you know, depending on on where you're at, I think that can make a really big, like, make or break for your business that it just might be worth it to sort of make that transition if you feel like that the support is gonna be there on the the other side. And and we reiterate that to customers as much as possible. You know, we're asking them to lean on us, reach out to your account managers for support, tell us what you need, what you're hearing in the market so that we can then go do our job and and build the right product that that does support you. And so I think, you know, there there are still plenty of ways to stay informed through your technology providers, but I'll encourage you to, like, command that you get it. And if you don't, don't be afraid to see what else is out there, who could potentially who could potentially give you that. And if you're if you're sort of testing the waters and you're interested in really what Alta was doing around this, I think, you know, our social channels are a really good place to start. Follow us on LinkedIn. Check out our blog. We've got loads of customer stories. We've even got a a rental reform compliance guide that is built off of the back of these types of conversations. And, yeah, if you're interested more so in seeing really, really what we can do, then booking a demo with us is a is a great place to start. And there just so happens to be a request a demo button at the top of the screen. Oh, I love that. I'll throw that one in there as well. Good. Good one. That's a good point because I and especially changing CRMs can be so scary, can't it? Especially when Yeah. You're never not busy. Agents are always busy. There's never gonna be a quiet time. There's never gonna be good time to do it. Yeah. But so so right in that, and if you're not feeling supported, if your c r CRM isn't giving you enough support in these changes in your day to day, then that's a a sure enough sign that you could look elsewhere. And you could look at ALTO as an option. But we won't do it. Just gonna, take some q and a as well just because I'm conscious of time. So, let me just see what our first q and a is. So we've got how could agents approach conversations with landlords who are considering exiting the market? Interesting one. Alan, Alan, do you wanna jump in with that one? Yeah. Sure. I mean, you know, the the obvious one is that that is what we talked about earlier, supply and demand. You know, if if if you're a landlord, you've been in the sector for a while, you you're worried, you're concerned about getting out, You know, supply is dwindling and demand is increasing. So from a from a rental rent itself perspective, financial perspective, you know, that should offset some of the potential challenges that are ahead. You know, I didn't say this early, but I do and and without harping on politics, I do feel at some stage, whether it's existing governments or future government, that that the penny will drop. And I I think I do expect personally some financial support to arrive in the next two or three years. And it might be that that suddenly people, you know, whether whether it's a government that actually thinks, look, we do need to do something about the private rented sector. Maybe that's me just being a bit class half full. I don't know. But, you know, I I think I could convince most landlords to stay in for their own good, not not not for the fact that that we want them to stay in from a a client perspective. Yeah. Absolutely. And, Christina, would you agree with that? Yeah. I agree. And I think the solutions, for most landlords' concerns and queries, although we've said, obviously, when we saw the statistics at the start that the loss of section 21 is a big concern for most people, for those good landlords that want to stay in the market but may eventually want to retire and sell their property or may eventually want one of their children to move into their property, those grounds are written into the law, and there will still be opportunities for those landlords to get their properties back. I think, again, the thing we've really harped on about is the quality. Landlords, I think should be the ones that would want to stay in the market because they will be able to get their properties back for genuine reasons. And I think, again, another solution that we touched on earlier on is things like rent guarantee, rent and legal cover for landlords. If they have concerns, there are these products out there, that landlords, again, might want to consider if that's a fear for them. But, yeah, I completely agree with what Alan said that supply is still being outstripped by demand. It's there's good yields to be had on the majority of the stock. And that is a good point as well for, you know, any worries with in terms of tenants not staying for very long. You know, if there if there is that worry where they're having sort of, like, short term less. If the demand is there anyway, then that's less of a worry knowing that there there is a possibility of another tenant then taking their place quite quickly. From if your area is anywhere like my area, I know tenancies go with a snap of fingers, and there's there's so much demand here for them, which hopefully will give landlords a bit of peace of mind that that hasn't dropped as well. One thing, on in fact, if I'm going to our next question, because I'm so worried I'm gonna keep up on here all day because we can just talk about this for hours. If you could give agents one piece of advice to take away from today's session. So we'll end with this question. What would your advice be? And I'll come to each of you. So let's put let's put Sarah on the spot first for a change because we keep Alan. I know. It's a good one. And then I have the, you know, the ability to just say, yeah. What these experts said is great. I could just echo echo you too. No. I think it's, it sort of goes back to my last point, which is don't let the fear of making a big change in in switching technology providers scare you into staying somewhere that you actually are missing out on the opportunity to really, really elevate your business if you're equipped with the right providers. And so, you know, do your due diligence. Like, certainly test and and try to get folks to prove that they are the right fit for you, whether that is, you know, looking at the software and, like, a really detailed focus or talking to previous customers. You know, use your network. Agents have a amazing network, typically. Get some referrals, things like that, and see if you can really, like, stress test what a a migration would really look like, because nine times out of 10 when I'm talking to customers, they're saying, I wish I would have done this sooner. I wish I didn't wait. And so I think if you kinda have that mentality, it will you know, you need to mitigate the fear as much as possible and still be realistic, but don't be afraid, because it really, really could be worth it for for your business, not just around compliance and reform and things like that, but just growth and, you know, efficiency and all that good stuff. Yeah. It's perfect. Thank you, Sarah. And, Christina, I'll come to you as well. What would your one piece of advice be? I think not to be scared of what's coming and to, look at the opportunities of what your stock is like at the moment, what quality properties you've got at the moment, and change what you can because we obviously mentioned that we're not getting much information from the government at the moment. But look at the processes that you can integrate, that you can streamline at the moment, a little bit like we've both said with our referencing, platforms. Look at those things you can do at the moment. If you can change your terms of business at the moment, look at at least getting those written up, ready to send out, and look at education education of landlords. They're the things that you can control at the moment. Okay. Thank you. And, Alan? It it's just, you know, trying to automate your processes just and and to to to allow and give yourself time to to have those conversations. You know? We can't automate them. We don't want to automate everything, but but we have to we have to be ruthless as an industry in terms of, of using tech, you you know, being ruthless in terms of looking at any areas where you can cut time to allow you the time to have proper kernel conversation with landlords and tenants like we want to, which which tech can't do. And derisk, you you know, it's an industry that is, you you know, you look at me, I'm I'm not a you're a word for snapper anymore. At my age, I don't want to be taking huge risks on on £40,000 fines left, right, and center. So so everything that you can do to derisk what you do, and and we talk about good law and things like that. It's it's to improve improve your service, but also to make sure that you're not missing things that are gonna be so easy to miss. One word missed out in a sentence, and and you could be heading for R20,000 fines. So but but what Chris is is that that don't be scared of it. You know, it's it's an opportunity. If you're good agents, you care about what you do, and you prefer to invest, then there's a great opportunity coming around the corner. That's amazing. Thank you. It's really, really helpful advice from all three of you there. And I'm gonna throw my 2p in as well, and I would say have discussions. You know, something like this has been great today. We've heard from from two different agents. We've heard from Alta. And I think having these conversations, not being scared to talk to each other as other agents as well and actually find commonalities, find common pain points or worries and ways around it. Because everyone thinks slightly differently and everyone has a slightly different opinion. And, actually, it puts puts your worries really at mind when you can have that conversation and just hear other perspectives as well. But we will wrap this up here. I'm yeah. Thank you so much for everyone on our panel for joining. So thank you, Christina, Alan, and Sarah. You've been absolutely amazing. And thank you so much for everyone who's joined us today, and I hope you found it interesting. And there's there's some conversation starters there for you as well. If you'd like to understand, more about how Alto helps agents, like we mentioned earlier, there is a request a demo button at the top, and you can also pop message in the chat if you have any direct questions or anything like that, and we can reach out to you. But, yeah, get that booked in if you are interested. And if you would like to watch this webinar back or share it with all of your friends and family, as I'm sure you'd love to, then we will be sending you out the on demand link after, after the webinar, and you'll find that in your inbox as soon. But yeah. Thank you very much, everyone, and take care. Have a good rest of your day. Yeah. You sound bye.